The Skin Flint Podcast

• Episode 27 - Packing The Perfect Punch in Skin Biopsies

  This month, Skin Flints welcomes a European and Australian boarded veterinary dermatologist, Sonya Bettenay. Show Notes (00:00) John introduces this month’s podcast, his co-hosts, and the topic. Chapter 1 – First Cut: Introducing Skin Biopsies (02:21) John invites Sonya to introduce herself, and she discusses her current work in Munich - focusing on skin biopsies, clinical practice, and teaching. Sue highlights Sonya's credentials, noting her Australian and European board certifications. Sonya explains her dermatology training in Australia and California and her involvement with the ECVD as an examiner and tutor. (03:57) Sue and Sonya discuss the challenges pathologists face in interpreting biopsy samples and the importance of taking quality samples to aid diagnosis. Sonya reflects on improvements in biopsy submissions over the years but notes that obtaining multiple samples often provides a more comprehensive picture. (05:31) John asks Sonya to explain what a skin biopsy is. Sonya describes it as a microscopic examination of the skin, providing insights beyond surface-level observation. Sonya outlines cases where biopsies are useful, such as unusual presentations that deviate from common conditions, and emphasises the need to tailor biopsy timing based on the patient's condition. Chapter 2 – Going Deeper -  Steps Before Biopsy (09:15) Sue asks Sonya whether biopsies should replace basic investigative tests. Sonya emphasises that fundamental diagnostic steps such as skin scrapes, hair plucks, and impression smears should be performed first in most cases. However, she highlights exceptions, particularly for vesicular or severe oral mucosal lesions, where early biopsy is crucial to diagnosing immune-mediated conditions. Sonya explains the importance of maintaining the integrity of vesicular lesions during biopsy to ensure accurate diagnosis. She stresses the need to take elliptical samples to include surrounding healthy tissue and avoid disrupting the lesion structure. (11:52) Sue and Sonya discuss the distinction between primary and secondary lesions. Sonya explains that primary lesions, such as pustules and vesicles, provide the most diagnostic value, whereas secondary lesions, like crusts and alopecia due to self-trauma, may offer limited insights. (15:15) John asks about choosing biopsy techniques. Sonya shares her preference for biopsy punches due to their precision and ease of use, while acknowledging the importance of elliptical excisions for fragile lesions like vesicles. She explains the technical aspects of both methods and how they can impact diagnostic outcomes. Chapter 3 – Preservation - Sustainability and Practical Considerations (19:30) Sue raises concerns about the sustainability of single-use biopsy punches. Sonya explains that while some attempts to sterilise and reuse them have been made, they often result in decreased sharpness and reliability. She advises using new punches for best results but acknowledges the need for sustainable alternatives. Sonya discusses her approach to biopsy sampling, recommending taking multiple samples to ensure comprehensive diagnosis. She suggests including normal tissue alongside affected areas for comparison. Sue and Sonya explore potential innovations for more sustainable biopsy tools, such as reusable handles with replaceable blades. (23:19) John asks if separate biopsy punches should be used for each sample. Sonya clarifies that one punch can typically be used for multiple samples unless dealing with particularly tough tissues that may dull the instrument. (23:52) John then asks who can take biopsies and Sonya notes that all vets and also veterinary nurses may be able to take samples depending on local regulations, particularly for alopecia cases. She highlights the importance of orienting samples correctly by marking the direction of hair growth to aid pathologists in accurate analysis. (27:25) Sue and Sonya discuss the need for deep biopsies in cases of hair loss or deeper inflammation and introduces the concept of shave biopsies as an alternative for delicate areas like the inner pinna. Chapter 4 – Packing a Punch - Sample Handling and Labelling (30:50) John asks about the best practices for preparing biopsy sites. Sonya advises against using any antiseptics or alcohol, explaining that preserving surface elements such as bacteria and crusts is crucial for accurate diagnosis. She recommends minimal shaving in the direction of hair growth to retain valuable diagnostic material. (33:20) John asks about labelling the samples - firstly Sonya provides guidance on handling biopsy samples, emphasising the need for quick placement in formalin to avoid tissue degradation. She recommends gently dabbing samples before immersion to preserve tissue integrity. Regarding labelling, Sonya highlights the importance of clear sample identification. She discusses techniques such as using coloured dyes or marking sutures to help orient samples and provide context for pathologists. Sonya also discusses the benefits of using dyes for sample orientation and how different colours can indicate specific sites. Sonya explains how proper labelling ensures better interpretation and helps guide future treatment decisions. (39:33) John and Sue wrap up the discussion, thanking Sonya for her insights and expressing interest in having her return for further discussions on histopathology. (41:12) John wraps up the discussion, previewing podcasts to come and asking his co-hosts another odd question.

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• Episode 26 - SkinFlint from the field – The Future of Veterinary Nursing Dermatology

  As a slightly different approach to this episode, John Redbonds heads to BVNA Congress to hear nurse's thoughts on the current lay of the land, and invites a few special guests to share their thoughts as well.   (00:00) John introduces the podcast and his co host – eLearning.vets head of education, Amelia Sherwood, looking into Veterinary Nursing in Dermatology, with conversations with Veterinary Nurses and industry people. Starting with some conversations from the British Veterinary Nursing Association Congress.   Chapter 1: VN Dermatology at BVNA congress – the challenges and the opportunities.   (02:12) John has a conversation with a couple of nurses working for a small group of practices that are involved in dermatology, without specialising. They reflect on some of the ways they have found to work more on dermatology, along with some of the challenges.   (05:49) John then speaks to two nurses working in a charity based PDSA practice, where they do the majority of dermatology work, and the cases are worked up thoroughly and fully – they reflect on why this is the case and why nurses do this more and how this shows that this is the most sensible and correct model.   (08:26) John speaks to Paris, a nurse who is interested and trained in dermatology – and sees the cases, but is unable to put her skills to use because the practice she is working at doesn’t utilise those skills.   (10:25) John speaks to someone working for a company called VN Recruitment – to discuss options which exist for nurses with an interest in dermatology to find a practice where they can use their skills.   Chapter 2: VN Dermatology Nursing in a corporate industry.   (12:45) John then speaks to representatives for the corporate groups to see if there were opportunities are present for nurses in CVS, VetPartners and IVC to progress in dermatology – and specialist centres and training programmes to exist, if a nurse pursues that route.   (17:50) John has a conversation with a nurse who had been heavily involved in dermatology work, but been made redundant by the group she worked for – with no options as a result locally to work as a vet nurse due to competition for places. Demonstrating the challenges that exist in the current landscape.   Chapter 3: VN Dermatology on the move.   (20:55) John spoke to Claire, a nurse who uses a more district nursing model to deliver her nursing skill set – showing there are ways for nurses to diversify within this landscape – and whilst she has some involvement in dermatology in partnership with her local practice, she recognised there could be more opportunity and potential for this.   (27:00) John speaks to Nicola Swales, the dermatology nurse at paragon referrals, who moved 4 hours across country to work as a dermatology nurse having worked at Langford referrals previously. Nicola shares how heavily she is involved in this process, showing just how involved nurses can be.   (34:12) John wraps the podcast by speaking to Amelia Sherwood, a veterinary nurse who has worked in wound management and the advancement in the nurse role in a large group; she shares her thoughts on where the veterinary nurse industry is currently and reflects on the challenges and opportunities there are for nurses.

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• Episode 25 | Pododermatitis Paw-dcast P.2 – A Surgeon's Perspective

  Pododermatitis Paw-dcast Part 2 – A Surgeon's Perspective (00:00) Intro - this month, Sue, John and Paul invite EBVS Specialist in Small Animal Surgery, Jakub Kaczmarek onto the platform to discuss the other side of pododermatitis - from the surgeon's perspective. Chapter 1 – Feet First - A Surgeon’s Take on Pododermatitis (03:12) John introduces Jakub, highlighting Ursula's recommendation following their fruitful discussion on pododermatitis. He invites Jakub to share his background. Jakub expresses gratitude for the invitation and mentions Ursula as a mentor during his residency in Germany. He discusses their collaboration on pododermatitis, combining dermatology and surgery. Jakub shares his educational journey from Poland, a semester in Vienna, and his internship in Germany, which focused on surgery and dermatology. He currently works in Cologne. (04:55) John acknowledges Jakub's expertise in dermatology and asks how a surgeon fits into managing pododermatitis in dogs. Jakub emphasises teamwork between dermatologists and orthopaedic specialists, noting the complexity of pododermatitis. He explains that it can arise from both skin-related and conformational issues, necessitating collaboration for optimal care. (06:16) John enquires about the types of lesions found on dogs' feet. Jakub explains that abnormal weight distribution from orthopaedic conditions, like developmental elbow disease, can cause pressure on specific paw digits, leading to abrasions, inflammation, and even local pyoderma. He describes hypertrophy on the paw's plantar surface, potentially forming "pseudoballs." Chronic irritation can result in excessive licking, leading to severe inflammation, which requires both orthopaedic and dermatologic management.   Chapter 2 - Toes: Lesions and Lameness (09:25) Sue comments on the dog's paw pad structure, noting that abnormal weight-bearing can lead to skin issues. She asks if this is the pathomechanism for pododermatitis. Jakub agrees and adds that while there are many potential causes, mechanical issues may also contribute. He supports Sue's idea that malalignment and weight distribution lead to abnormal weight-bearing and related problems. Sue clarifies that some cases of pododermatitis have dermatological causes, while others stem from orthopaedic issues. Jakub agrees but points out that breeds like Labrador Retrievers and Bulldogs often have both conditions, complicating the determination of the primary issue. Sue P recalls a study revealing Bulldogs walk on their toes, which could contribute to multiple health issues. She emphasises the need for a multidisciplinary approach. Jakub references a study by Tim Nuttall involving over 160 dogs, noting that factors like body condition and hair type are significant in causing pododermatitis and interdigital cysts. Sue P agrees, linking higher body condition scores to more weight on the front limbs, thus making pododermatitis more common there. Jakub clarifies that while pododermatitis is typically seen more in front limbs, conditions like hip dysplasia can also affect hind limbs. He explains that primary dermatological issues may affect both front limbs, while orthopaedic problems often involve a single limb. Sue P sums up that multiple limb involvement likely relates to skin conditions, while single limb issues could indicate orthopaedic problems. Jakub agrees, adding that orthopaedic conditions like OCD or FCP typically show changes in the affected limb. (14:53) John revisits Jakub's "top-down or bottom-up" approach, asking how it relates to recognising orthopaedic diseases as triggers for pododermatitis. Jakub explains that common orthopaedic triggers include developmental elbow diseases like OCD and FCP, as well as shoulder OCD, which causes dogs to alter their walking to reduce pain. He notes that patellar luxation often results from underlying angular limb deformities that shift the weight-bearing axis, exacerbating dermatological issues.   Chapter 3 - Surgical Solutions: From Lasers to Collaboration for Better Outcomes (17:30) Sue asks Jakub to elaborate on triggers, noting that predisposed breeds and age of onset play a role, citing Labradors as an example. Jakub confirms that Labrador Retrievers exhibit these issues, with signs of orthopaedic problems appearing as early as five to six months, and severe cases at four months. He mentions common large breeds prone to orthopaedic problems. (18:59) Sue asks about the timing of pododermatitis relative to orthopaedic diseases, questioning if lameness in young dogs could precede pododermatitis. Jakub notes that pododermatitis and orthopaedic diseases usually present in older dogs, around two years of age. He hasn't observed significant changes in younger dogs, suggesting it takes time for pododermatitis to develop due to malalignment and weight redistribution. Sue P agrees, noting that in her practice, older dogs often present with pododermatitis alongside a history of earlier orthopaedic problems. She suggests a compensatory mechanism may lead to conditions like interdigital cysts. Jakub agrees, highlighting that dermatological conditions like pododermatitis are painful due to inflammation, which can lead to chronic discomfort. He asks Sue if Labrador owners ever report lameness when presenting dermatological issues. Sue P mentions that owners usually don’t report pain, necessitating probing for details. She reflects on referring a three-year-old Labrador with recurrent interdigital lesions to an orthopaedic surgeon to assess joints. If swelling or crepitus is present, she recommends CT scans and emphasises early intervention. Jakub recalls Sue's 2012 publication linking interdigital lesions with elbow issues. He has observed that treating elbow conditions often leads to improvement in lesions, suggesting that combining orthopaedic corrections with topical treatments could yield better outcomes. (25:18) John asks Jakub to elaborate on surgical approaches for pododermatitis, including techniques like webectomy and podoplasty. Jakub notes he has not performed podoplasty but has seen it used successfully in severe cases. He prefers laser ablation, as it is quicker and effective when collaborating with a dermatologist who has tried conservative treatments. He recounts streamlining procedures significantly, reducing time from 1.5 hours to 30-35 minutes. Sue adds context, explaining webectomy and podoplasty. She contrasts her cold steel surgery experience with the benefits of laser surgery. Jakub explains that CO2 lasers are more precise and cause less collateral damage than diode lasers. He emphasises the advantages of laser treatment in sealing vessels, which minimises bleeding and post-op pain. He mentions a colleague who leaves wounds open post-surgery, but he prefers using honey treatments for healing. (34:06) John concludes by praising the collaboration between Jakub and dermatologists like Ursula, highlighting the importance of a multidisciplinary approach in managing complex cases like pododermatitis. Outro (37:07) Final thoughts John puts another bizarre question to Sue and Paul.

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• Episode 24 - Companions on the Streets: How StreetVet is Changing Lives

  Chapter 1 – Companionship for Life on the Streets   (02:58) John asks Jade to introduce herself and her background as a vet and how she came to setup Streetvet. Jade shares her story of experiencing homelessness in London with a man called Dave and his dog brick, and using her past research on homelessness and dog owners coupled with her own experience in mental health challenges and how having a dog helped her, to drive her to want to help these dogs and their owners. She shares how she started going round with someone who who cut hair for homeless people, and used this as a launching pad for doing the same as a vet seeing the dogs of homeless people.   (10:05) Sue talks about the data showing the importance of companionship for homeless people with their pets, and Jade shares how there are papers and research showing that lots of factors from loyalty through to body heat show that they are vital, and her own experience maps onto that.   Chapter 2 – Building StreetVet: A Backpack and a Big Heart   (13:37) John asks Jade about how Streetvet started and what id does, and jade share how she and co-founder Sam Joseph set it up going out just the two of them, and calling themselves Streetvet – but they realised the size of the task and in 2019 set it up as a registered charity ad looked to grow it. She talks about how it picked up traction in the media through both the need for it – but also how the professional of vets needed it – with Vets and Nurses remaining in the profession providing this service reconnected them with their work. This was a completely unexpected thing for Jade.   (17:30) John asks how the service works and Jade shares that they go out with a backpack and do all the things they would in a consultation – so taking blood samples and urine samples etc. They look to empower the owner on feeling involved by doing this on the street – before then if they need to go into a practice and Streetvet have a network of practices that help provide inpatient services. Streetvet also started an accredited hostel scheme as less than 10% of hostels in the UK accept pets, to prevent owners from having to hose to remain on the street if they have one. She also mentions they offer boarding for times where the owner need to go into hospital for healthcare themselves and can’t take their pet with them.   (21:10) Sue asks about the management of chronic, long term illnesses in the Streetvet work, Jade shares that they have set times and set locations rather than approaching the owners on the street – so the owners come to them in those times. But this allows them to come back again, and jade has been surprised that they have been able to treat long term diseases like cushings and diabetes, in cases where the client is committed to the process – as they do keep coming back.   Chapter 5 – Tackling Skin Woes: Managing Dermatology in the StreetVet World   (27:00) John asks about specifically the management of skin disease in the Streetvet environment and Jade shares that they do treat these, but the challenges are very real. They have even had cases of clients performing a diet trial and long term management of skin disease. The challenges in the life of these people can make it very difficult for the owners to have consistency, but the clients are very good at coming for regular flea treatment and prophylactic skin care, in some way because of the social benefits to coming and sharing in the the streetvet community and this makes managing these cases easier than one may think.  Jade discussed the types of medications they have food they can help with, topical treatment and some antibiotics to help with these cases as well as steroids if needed. Then they do have access to other medications if needed which they wont carry in the backpack.   (32:35) Sue asks how this is funded and Jade again emphasises how great and supportive the veterinary profession has been – with companies supporting with pro bono products and vets and nurses fundraising.   (34:19) Sue asks about the size of Streetvet and Jade says they are on 24 locations in total, and over 400 volunteer vets and nurses. And Sue asks how people can be involved – Jade mentions the website where you can get involved in volunteering, whether a vet, vet nurse or someone wanting to help in some other way – or fundraising as well. Or follow on Facebook and Instagram. www.streetvet.org.uk https://www.facebook.com/streetvet https://www.instagram.com/streetvetuk_/   (37:02) – John, Sue and Paul wrap up the podcast.

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• Episode 23 - Pododermatitis Paw-dcast

  Pododermatitis Paw-dcast Show Notes (00:00) John introduces the podcast and Sue introduces Ursula Mayer – the guest on the show. Chapter 1 - Paw-sibilities – introduction to pododermatitis. (02:21) John invites Ursula to introduce herself. Ursula discusses her background and passion for pododermatitis, its prevalence, and its impact on dogs' quality of life. (03:33) When asked to define pododermatitis, Ursula explains that it's inflammation of the paw skin, with a particular emphasis on chronic cases, known as C-PIF. She discusses the various signs to look out for, such as excessive licking, lameness, and specific changes in paw appearance as the condition progresses. (05:31) Sue talks about the complexity of pododermatitis, and Ursula draws parallels with chronic otitis in terms of the multifaceted factors involved. She emphasises the importance of considering predisposing factors, primary causes including orthopaedic issues, secondary influences, and perpetuating factors in diagnosing and managing the condition effectively. Chapter 2 - Paw-sibilities - Orthopaedic Influences and Breed Predispositions (06:57) Sue asks Ursula to explain how orthopaedic diseases can contribute to pododermatitis in dogs. Ursula explains that pain from orthopaedic conditions alters weight bearing, causing dogs to adjust their stance and potentially rub their paws together, leading to inflammation and abnormal walking patterns. She goes on to discuss specific orthopaedic diseases, including elbow dysplasia, hip dysplasia, and arthritis affecting joints such as toes, carpus, tarsus, elbows, hips, and the back. These conditions can disrupt normal weight distribution and contribute to the development of pododermatitis. (08:35) Sue further illustrates with an example and Ursula emphasizes the importance of referring chronic cases to orthopaedic specialists for thorough examinations and imaging. She acknowledges the complexity of diagnosing older dogs with multiple affected areas, stressing the need for integrated care across disciplines to effectively manage pododermatitis. (09:56) John asks if this is just dogs and Ursula confirms that while cats can also suffer from pododermatitis, the chronic form discussed, known as C-PIF, predominantly affects dogs and not cats. John then asks about breed predispositions, particularly in relation to posture-related issues in Labradors. Ursula elaborates that certain breeds, notably larger and heavier ones like bulldogs, French bulldogs, and pugs, are commonly affected. Labradors and Golden Retrievers also constitute a significant portion of cases. The characteristics such as short, bristly coats and broad, flat paws, may contribute to their susceptibility to the condition. Ursula notes that even without orthopaedic diseases, these breeds' anatomical traits appear to play a role in the development of pododermatitis. (12:20) Sue reflects on a study involving bulldogs walking on pressure plates, noting that those without interdigital lesions tended to walk more upright. She emphasises that dogs with flatter feet and heavier builds are more prone to issues due to their posture, suggesting a correlation between anatomical features and pododermatitis. She further discusses how these factors influence investigation and treatment approaches. Ursula agrees, highlighting the significant role of allergies alongside orthopaedic diseases in pododermatitis cases. She notes the complexity in distinguishing between underlying orthopaedic conditions and inherent anatomical predispositions in certain breeds. Ursula shares a case involving a dog initially treated for allergies, later developing orthopaedic issues that exacerbated pododermatitis, illustrating the interplay between these factors. (14:47) Sue outlines the investigative process, starting with a comprehensive history and dermatological examination, incorporating orthopaedic evaluations based on findings. Ursula explains her approach, emphasising the importance of ruling out issues, particularly Demodex, through rigorous testing methods. She discusses predisposing factors such as weight and breed characteristics, and systematically examines for primary diseases like allergies, orthopaedic issues, and endocrine disorders. Ursula stresses the need to assess secondary infections and carefully inspect paw conditions, especially ventrally, to identify specific dermatological and orthopaedic indicators. Chapter 3 – Paws-itive outcomes - Diagnostic and Treatment Approaches (18:24) Sue asks about infection management in pododermatitis cases. Ursula explains that for superficial cases of pododermatitis, she primarily employs topical treatments. However, in chronic cases where deep pyoderma is present, systemic antibiotics are often necessary. She emphasises the importance of not relying solely on antibiotics without addressing underlying factors, as this can lead to recurring infections and antibiotic resistance. In deciding whether to use systemic antibiotics, Ursula considers the overall treatment plan. If surgery such as laser therapy is planned, she may opt against systemic antibiotics. For cases where medical therapy alone may suffice, she stresses the need for culture and sensitivity testing to target treatment effectively and minimise antibiotic use. (20:17) John questions Ursula about the approach to treating infections and determining underlying causes simultaneously. Ursula explains her concurrent approach, emphasising the urgency in addressing both infections and underlying conditions early on to improve the dog's quality of life. (22:17) Sue asks about anti-inflammatory therapy options in pododermatitis and the efficacy of non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (NSAIDs) versus steroids, cyclosporine, tacrolimus, and anti-pruritic drugs like oclacitinib and lokivetmab.. Ursula details her approach, highlighting the need for potent anti-inflammatory agents in severe cases of pododermatitis. She explains that while drugs like oclacitinib can alleviate itching, they may not sufficiently address inflammation. For cases requiring robust anti-inflammatory action, Ursula often starts with systemic steroids and cyclosporine simultaneously, gradually tapering off steroids once cyclosporine takes full effect. She stresses the challenges and side effects associated with long-term steroid use, advocating for cyclosporine as a viable long-term treatment despite its delayed onset of action. Ursula discusses transitioning to topical therapies like tacrolimus or non-thinning glucocorticoids as conditions improve, aiming to minimise reliance on systemic medications over time. (25:16) Sue asks about the complexities faced by Ursula when treating animals with multiple conditions. Ursula acknowledges the multifaceted nature of these cases, stressing the importance of weight management as a foundational step due to its lack of side effects. She emphasises the need for collaboration with orthopaedic specialists to address underlying orthopaedic diseases like elbow dysplasia early on. For pain relief and inflammation management in the feet, Ursula initially uses systemic steroids and cyclosporine, with a cautious approach to long-term steroid use. (27:05) Sue asks about prioritising orthopaedic surgery to correct primary causes like ununited coronoid process before addressing pododermatitis. Ursula acknowledges this strategy, noting that while surgery can eliminate chronic factors perpetuating pododermatitis, the outcomes vary depending on the case's severity and the owner's preferences. She explains that surgical intervention in the paws may provide faster relief, especially when orthopaedic conditions are severe. However, she also highlights the challenge of reversing long-standing paw conditions even after correcting the primary cause. Ursula emphasises the importance of timing and individualised treatment plans tailored to each patient's specific needs and responses. (29:14) John enquires about the feasibility of surgical procedures for pododermatitis in general practice versus referral settings. Ursula explains that surgical suitability depends on the general practitioner's expertise in dermatology, orthopaedics, and surgical techniques. For interdigital web surgery using traditional methods, like cold steel, she mentions the challenge of post-operative management due to necessary rigid bandaging. She contrasts this with CO2 laser surgery, highlighting its advantages such as reduced bleeding, pain, and swelling post-surgery due to sealed lymphatic and blood vessels and nerve endings. Ursula notes that CO2 lasers offer precise, fine-tuned tissue removal while preserving healthy dorsal skin, promoting healing by second intention without sutures. This approach aims to restore normal paw anatomy, crucial for long-term health. Ursula cautions against using diode lasers due to their higher collateral heat damage potential, unsuitable for delicate pododermatitis cases requiring precise tissue control. (33:49) Sue summarises the distinctions between podoplasty and CO2 laser techniques: podoplasty involves excising interdigital tissue and suturing toes, whereas CO2 laser surgery delicately removes scar tissue and abnormal follicles, crucial for preventing recurrent infections. Ursula elaborates on using CO2 lasers in both painting and cutting modes depending on tissue conditions, emphasising its efficacy in restoring paw health through precise, controlled tissue removal. (35:03) John concludes the discussion and Ursula emphasises the significance of regular examination of paw pads, especially in predisposed breeds or suspected allergic patients, urging veterinary professionals to involve owners in observing early signs like erythema. She stresses the value of early referral when cases become challenging, highlighting proactive management as key.   (37:52) Sue and John wrap up with their thoughts on this month’s guest, before John asks the team a question that’s been bugging him all episode…

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