Law touches most aspects of life. Here to help make sense of it is the Stanford Legal podcast, where we look at the cases, questions, conflicts, and legal stori...
Trump's Pardons: Political Violence, Hate Groups, and the Rule of Law
What are the legal implications of the unprecedented mass pardoning of the January 6th rioters? What does it say about American rule of law? President Biden’s DOJ prosecuted nearly 1,600 of the January 6, 2021, rioters—many for acts of shocking violence against police and government offices. On January 20, newly sworn-in President Trump, in one of his first official acts, issued a sweeping grant of clemency to all of the rioters charged in connection with the attack on the Capitol attack. He pardoned most defendants and commuted the sentences of 14 members of the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers militia, most of whom had been convicted of seditious conspiracy. The response from some of these violent rioters since the pardons has been alarming.“The people who did this, they need to feel the heat. We need to find and put them behind bars for what they did,” said Enrique Tarrio, the former national Proud Boys leader, sentenced to a 22-year sentence on seditious conspiracy charges, on Alex Jones' podcast soon after his pardon. Our guests today are Stanford Law Professor Shirin Sinnar and former DOJ prosecutor Brendan Ballou.Sinnar’s scholarship, including a recent study of hate groups, focuses on the legal treatment of political violence, the procedural dimensions of civil rights litigation, and the role of institutions in protecting individual rights and democratic values in the national security contextBallou was a lawyer at the Department of Justice for five years. He resigned on January 23 soon after President Trump's pardons. In a New York Times opinion essay, he wrote: “For while some convicted rioters seem genuinely remorseful, and others appear simply ready to put politics behind them, many others are emboldened by the termination of what they see as unjust prosecutions. Freed by the president, they have never been more dangerous.” He graduated from Stanford Law in 2016.Links:Shirin Sinnar >>> Stanford Law pageNew York Times piece by Brendan Ballou >>> I Prosecuted the Capitol Rioters. They Have Never Been More Dangerous.Connect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Lawyer Magazine >>> Twitter/X(00:00:00) The January 6th Prosecutions and the Pardon Power(00:06:26) Rewriting History and the Threat of Political Violence (00:11:56) The Future of Political Violence in the U.S. (17:24) Addressing Militia Violence and Legal Gaps(21:37) State-Level Prosecutions and Risks of Expanding Criminal Laws(25:27) Pardons, Political Violence, and Historical Parallels
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Criminal Justice in Divided America: Can Democracy Survive a Broken Justice System?
Criminal law expert and Stanford Law Professor David Sklansky joins Pam Karlan to discuss his book Criminal Justice in Divided America: Police, Punishment, and the Future of Our Democracy, published in January. In this episode, they explore what he sees as the failures of America’s criminal justice system—from overly harsh sentences and prosecutorial abuses to the under-utilization of the jury system—that don’t just harm individuals, but erode the very foundations of democratic governance. They also examine the rise and fall of community policing, the role of mental health in police encounters, and the impact of jury service on civic engagement, offering insights into how criminal justice shapes political and social landscapes while proposing steps toward reform.Sklansky, a former federal prosecutor, teaches and writes about policing, prosecution, criminal law and the law of evidence at Stanford Law, where he is also the faculty co-director of the Stanford Criminal Justice Center.Connect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Lawyer Magazine >>> Twitter/XLinks:David Sklansky >>> Stanford Law pageCriminal Justice in Divided America, Police, Punishment, and the Future of Our Democracy >>> Stanford Lawyer magazine online feature(00:00:00) Chapter 1: Criminal Justice and the Erosion of DemocracyPam Karlan welcomes professor David Sklansky and explains the link between the crises of criminal justice and democracy, discussing how failures in criminal law and policy have undermined democratic values. The conversation touches on racial disparities, equal protection, and how the criminal justice system has contributed to public distrust in government institutions.(00:05:15) Chapter 2: Policing and PolarizationKarlan and Sklansky delve into the historical role of policing in fueling political polarization, particularly during the rise of crime as a central political issue in the late 20th century. Sklansky highlights the impact of police abuse on public confidence, the Republican Party's pivot toward tough-on-crime policies, and how bipartisan approaches to policing briefly improved public trust.(00:09:12) Chapter 3: The Rise and Fall of Community PolicingThe discussion focuses on community policing as a promising reform effort that ultimately fell short. Sklansky critiques its limited engagement with younger residents and those affected by police violence. He explains how the movement's failure to address systemic issues, like excessive police violence, eroded its credibility and relevance in modern reform conversations.(00:14:15) Chapter 4: Guns, Policing, and Mental Health CrisesThe discussion explores the connection between America's lax gun laws and police killings, highlighting the role of training and the unique challenges posed by mental health crises. Sklansky addresses the need for better collaboration between police and other services while emphasizing the importance of proper training in de-escalation.(00:19:00) Chapter 5: Small Police Departments and Training ChallengesKarlan and Sklansky examine the implications of having too many decentralized police departments in the U.S. They discuss issues like poor training, rehiring problematic officers, and the proliferation of SWAT teams. Sklansky offers insights on potential reforms and the influence of state and federal coordination in improving policing.(00:21:32) Chapter 6: The Role of Juries in DemocracyKarlan and Sklansky delve into the jury system as a cornerstone of democracy, discussing its impact on civic engagement, cross-sectional representation, and public trust. They highlight the need for systemic changes to improve accessibility, fair cross-section representation, and community participation in jury duty.
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Special Counsel Smith's Report on Trump's Interference in the 2020 Election
In the early hours of January 14, 2024 the Department of Justice released its long-awaited election interference report against President-elect Donald Trump. It was a long and winding road to that moment—and one marked, ultimately, by justice delayed. In November 2022, Attorney General Merrick Garland appointed Jack Smith as special counsel to oversee criminal investigations by the Justice Department into former President Donald Trump’s efforts to overturn the 2020 election and his retention of classified documents. The two cases were brought in different jurisdictions—with charges for the classified documents case filed in Florida and the elections case in Washington, D.C. After false starts, the blockbuster Supreme Court ruling on July 1, 2024 that former President Trump is entitled to some immunity from criminal prosecution for actions taken to overturn the results of the 2020 election, and the subsequent re-election of Trump in November, Smith and the DOJ dropped both cases. (Publication of Smith’s report regarding the documents case is delayed due to pending charges against co-conspirators.) Connect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Lawyer Magazine >>> Twitter/XLinks:David Sklansky >>> Stanford Law pageCriminal Justice in Divided America, Police, Punishment, and the Future of Our Democracy >>> Stanford Lawyer magazine online feature(00:00:00) Chapter 1: Introduction and the Role of Special ProsecutorsPam Karlan and David Sklansky discuss the history and purpose of special prosecutors, their use in politically sensitive cases, and the implications of their reports. Sklansky explains the transition from independent counsels to special counsels and highlights examples like the Mueller Report and investigations into Hunter Biden.(00:05:01) Chapter 2: Insights from Jack Smith’s ReportThe conversation shifts to Jack Smith's report on Donald Trump. Karlan and Sklansky explore the evidence presented, its connection to the January 6th events, and the debates around releasing such reports. Karlan questions the timing of appointing a special counsel, given much was already public knowledge.(00:08:25) Chapter 3: Prosecution Outcomes and Future ImplicationsKarlan and Sklansky discuss the slow progress of Trump’s investigation compared to other January 6th prosecutions. They also cover Trump’s promise to pardon convicted January 6th defendants, the fate of unnamed co-conspirators, and the ethical questions surrounding Todd Blanche’s involvement at the DOJ. (00:12:16) Chapter 4: Decisions and Legal Strategies in Trump’s ProsecutionKarlan and Sklansky discuss the decision not to charge Donald Trump with insurrection, focusing instead on charges like fraud and voter suppression. They analyze why the special counsel avoided certain charges and the challenges of applying existing statutes to unprecedented events.(00:16:30) Chapter 5: The Supreme Court’s Role and the Impact on ProsecutionThe conversation explores delays caused by the Supreme Court, including its handling of presidential immunity. Karlan and Sklansky explain how these rulings affected timelines and created legal ambiguities that could influence appeals and the overall process.(00:19:00) Chapter 6: Restoring Trust in Criminal Justice and DemocracyKarlan and Sklansky shift focus to broader implications for democracy, discussing how Trump’s prosecutions might deepen distrust in institutions. They consider paths to reform, including bipartisan efforts to reinforce the rule of law and community policing. The episode concludes with reflections on lessons from past legal leaders and the enduring relevance of Robert Jackson’s warnings about prosecutorial overreach.
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California Burning: LA Fires, Climate Change, and Insurance Nightmares with Environmental Lawyer Debbie Sivas
The fires in Los Angeles, fueled by drought and the notorious Santa Ana winds, have wreaked devastation on the largest county in the United States, taking at least 10 lives and destroying thousands of structures as of January 10—with much of the Los Angeles metropolis, suburban neighborhoods like Pasadena and Pacific Palisades engulfed in smoke, and tens of thousands of residents without homes. In this episode, environmental law expert Deborah Sivas joins Pam Karlan for a discussion of California's fire crisis, examining how climate change and urban development are making residents more susceptible to the dangers of fires. They also look at air quality, rebuilding challenges, insurance strains, and the broader implications for urban planning, labor, and environmental recovery, highlighting the urgent need for sustainable solutions in an era of intensifying climate impacts.Connect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Lawyer Magazine >>> Twitter/XLinks:Deborah A. Sivas >>> Stanford Law page(00:00:00) Chapter 1: Introduction, the Santa Ana Winds, and Fire DynamicsHost Pam Karlan introduces environmental expert Deborah Sivas. The two discuss the Santa Ana winds, their origins, and their role in fueling wildfires. They explore the interaction of high winds, parched landscapes, and the growing impact of climate change on fire frequency and intensity.(00:06:49) Chapter 2: Urban Fires and the Wildland-Urban InterfaceThe conversation shifts to the challenges of wildfires in urban and suburban areas. Sivas explains fire ignition sources, the difficulty of containment, and the need for defensible spaces. She highlights the vulnerability of areas at the wildland-urban interface and discusses practical steps to reduce fire risk, including vegetation management and retrofitting structures.(00:12:37) Chapter 3: Air Quality and the Broader Impacts of FiresSivas and Karlan examine the devastating effects of wildfire smoke on air quality, especially in densely populated regions like Los Angeles. They discuss how urban fires release toxic pollutants and disproportionately impact vulnerable communities. The chapter emphasizes the broader environmental and health consequences of wildfires in an era of climate change.(00:16:46) Chapter 4: Climate Change, Insurance Challenges, and Recovery EffortsThe conversation shifts to the economic challenges posed by climate disasters, focusing on California’s wildfire insurance crisis. Sivas explains private insurance limitations, the state's FAIR program, and rebuilding challenges, including rising construction costs and environmental cleanup.(00:23:17) Chapter 5: Firefighting, Displacement, and Economic ImpactKarlan and Sivas explore the complexities of wildfire response, including the reliance on inmate labor and firefighting logistics. They also discuss displacement, long-term housing issues, and the socioeconomic toll on affected communities and businesses.
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Tariffs, Trade Wars, and Policy Shifts under Trump: A Tutorial on the Global Economy and Trade
Just weeks before he was elected president of the United States, during a conversation at the Economic Club of Chicago, Donald Trump declared, “The most beautiful word in the dictionary is ‘tariff.’ And it’s my favorite word.” As the president-elect takes to the bully pulpit, leaders of nations threatened with new tariffs are calling Trump or even flying down to Mar-a-Lago, as Canadian President Trudeau did recently, to argue their case. Stanford Law Professor Alan O. Sykes joins Pam and Rich for this episode to help make sense of the fascinating world of trade, tariffs, and the global economy. Al is a leading expert on the application of economics to legal problems whose most recent scholarship is focused on international economic relations. His writing and teaching have encompassed international trade, torts, contracts, insurance, antitrust, international investment law and economic analysis of law. He is the author most recently of the book The Law and Economics of International Trade Agreements. Connect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Lawyer Magazine >>> Twitter/XLinks:Alan O. Sykes >>> Stanford Law page(00:00:00) Chapter 1: Introduction and Explanation of Tariffs Rich Ford and Pam Karlan introduce Professor Alan Sykes, a leading expert in international trade law, to explore the basics of tariffs. They discuss what tariffs are, how they function like a tax on imports, and who ultimately bears the cost. Sykes explains the economic complexities, such as elasticity of demand and supply, and highlights how tariffs impact U.S. consumers and foreign producers.They discuss how tariffs often fail to significantly increase manufacturing jobs and the potential downsides of retaliation and supply chain disruptions.(00:08:36) Chapter 2: Policy Implications and Optimal Tariff Strategies Alan Sykes unpacks the policy decisions behind tariffs, such as balancing national security concerns and economic efficiency. Sykes explains the concept of "optimal tariffs" and critiques proposals like 100% tariffs, arguing for targeted approaches such as subsidies for sensitive industries. The hosts highlight the distinction between product-specific measures and country-focused tariffs in maintaining supply chain resilience. (00:12:28) Chapter 3: The Evolution of U.S. Free Trade Policy The group explores the post-World War II consensus around free trade and how it has shifted in recent years. Alan Sykes outlines bipartisan changes to U.S. trade policy, the impact of the "China shock," and the shift towards an "America First" approach under both Trump and Biden administrations.(00:16:43) Chapter 4: Tariffs, Trade Wars, and Public Misunderstandings The discussion delves into the politics of tariffs and their economic implications. Alan Sykes explains why tariffs remain politically popular despite their economic inefficiency, the mechanics of trade wars, and the historical example of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff. They also discuss how tariffs and retaliation, such as restrictions on rare earth elements, could affect U.S. industries.(00:23:26) Chapter 5: Multilateral Trade Agreements and National Security Alan Sykes traces the history of multilateral trade institutions, focusing on the GATT, WTO, and USMCA. Sykes explains the U.S.’s recent retreat from WTO commitments, the renegotiation of NAFTA, and the controversial use of national security clauses to justify tariffs and sanctions. The conversation closes with insights on the implications of these shifts for allies and adversaries alike.
Law touches most aspects of life. Here to help make sense of it is the Stanford Legal podcast, where we look at the cases, questions, conflicts, and legal stories that
affect us all every day.
Stanford Legal launched in 2017 as a radio show on Sirius XM. We’re now a standalone podcast and we’re back after taking some time away, so don’t forget to subscribe or follow this feed. That way you’ll have access to new episodes as soon as they’re available.
We know that the law can be complicated. In past episodes we discussed a broad range of topics from the legal rights of someone in a conservatorship like Britney Spears to the Supreme Court’s abortion decision to how American law firms had to untangle their Russian businesses after the invasion of Ukraine. Past episodes are still available in our back catalog of episodes.
In future shows, we’ll bring on experts to help make sense of things like machine learning and developments in the regulation of artificial intelligence, how the states draw voting maps, and ways that the Supreme Court’s affirmative action ruling will change college admissions.
Our co-hosts know a bit about these topics because it’s their life’s work.
Pam Karlan studies and teaches what is known as the “law of democracy,”—the law that regulates voting, elections, and the political process. She served as a commissioner on the California Fair Political Practices Commission, an assistant counsel and cooperating attorney for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, and (twice) as a Deputy Assistant Attorney General in the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice. She also co-directs Stanford’s Supreme Court Litigation Clinic, which represents real clients before the highest court in the country, working on important cases including representing Edith Windsor in the landmark marriage equality win and David Riley in a case where the Supreme Court held that the police generally can’t search digital information on a cell phone seized from an individual who has been arrested unless they first get a warrant. She has argued before the Court nine times.
And Rich Ford’s teaching and writing looks at the relationship between law and equality, cities and urban development, popular culture and everyday life. He teaches local government law, employment discrimination, and the often-misunderstood critical race theory. He studied with and advised governments around the world on questions of equality law, lectured at places like the Sorbonne in Paris on the relationship of law and popular culture, served as a commissioner for the San Francisco Housing Commission, and worked with cities on how to manage neighborhood change and volatile real estate markets. He writes about law and popular culture for lawyers, academics, and popular audiences. His latest book is Dress Codes: How the Laws of Fashion Made History, a legal history of the rules and laws that influence what we wear.
The law is personal for all of us—and pivotal. The landmark civil rights laws of the 1960s have made discrimination illegal but the consequences of the Jim Crow laws imposed after the civil war are still with us, reflected in racially segregated schools and neighborhoods and racial imbalances in our prisons and conflict between minority communities and police. Unequal gender roles and stereotypes still keep women from achieving equality in professional status and income. Laws barring gay people from marrying meant that millions lived lives of secrecy and shame. New technologies present new legal questions: should AI decide who gets hired or how long convicted criminals go to prison? What can we do about social media’s influence on our elections? Can Chat GPT get copyright in a novel?
Law matters. We hope you’ll listen to new episodes that will drop on Thursdays every two weeks.
To learn more, go to https://law.stanford.edu/stanford-legal-podcast/.
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